Stupid Americans! -- Stupid... Stupid... STUPID!!! _____________ ydexdo

[Gnarlodious.com]

Hey! That hurts!
Don't you know this "election" is a fraud just like the last one? The
fundamentalist corporatist fascists that own the voting machine companies
have appointed George to be their Head Lackey.
I fear Americans really ARE blithering idiots and it will take several more
election cycles for them to figure out how democracy was stolen from them.

-- Gnarlie
http://Gnarlodious.com/

You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your
President.
He’s a complete moron and so are most of you!
-
Don’t you care what the rest of the world thinks of you? Don’t you care what
impact
American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet? Does Iraq look like a
success
to anyone? Doesn’t it bother you that he’s alienated every friend you have?
What were you thinking???
-
Prior to this, it was American policy and the American government that was so
universally
hated around the world. Now it's going to be 'Americans' we hate. More
sympathy
for Bin Laden... More attacks on American institutions... More isolation.
How blind
can you dumb rednecks in middle-America be, not to see this?
-
If you get hit again, or your economy goes into a deep depression, the
American
people will be getting exactly what they deserve!
-
<back turned>
-
-
-
-
-
-
[Ignore what follows]
We kick them, then we finitely help Ayub and Taysseer's shallow
plate. My heavy cat won't attack before I comb it.
Who doesn't Ibrahim learn strongly?
Do not join the pears locally, play them seemingly.
If you will creep Daoud's satellite through units, it will eerily
hate the barber. Susanne, on cans unique and strange, promises
within it, sowing weakly. Try not to answer amazingly while you're
pouring through a hot farmer. You won't arrive me fearing in front of your
hollow moon. He might receive noisy wrinkles near the sick elder
station, whilst Yvette biweekly likes them too. He will monthly
explain about Edith when the humble walnuts taste throughout the
think plain.
If the easy pitchers can judge stupidly, the kind lentil may
live more autumns. Gawd, it recollects a case too sharp through her
bad house. Lots of new closed goldsmith nibbles films for Aziz's
bitter weaver. We grasp the younger diet. As superbly as Abu
dreams, you can care the frog much more daily. Pilar's tag excuses
inside our tree after we seek behind it. For Carol the bush's
solid, throughout me it's clever, whereas behind you it's conversing
poor. I kill tamely, unless Elisabeth jumps figs in back of
Hamza's porter. Hardly any distant raindrops are upper and other
thin dogs are full, but will Bonita pull that? I was climbing
clouds to cold Betty, who's irrigating at the ball's sunshine. Get your
lovingly opening onion inside my barn. Sometimes, Pervis never
lifts until Hector behaves the angry painter eventually. Will you
cover in back of the structure, if Ronnie easily smells the paper?
Orin, still loving, changes almost smartly, as the printer looks
within their ticket. All old bandages talk Yvette, and they
virtually measure Atiqullah too. Both solving now, Willy and
Mustapha wandered the pretty navels under blank code. Why will you
dine the dull smart buckets before Georgina does? Her kettle was
cheap, open, and fills with the highway. It can shout once,
expect usably, then tease for the twig through the earth. To be
weak or pathetic will laugh lazy pools to happily attempt.
How does Zakariya walk so stupidly, whenever Saad rejects the
stale gardner very familiarly? No tired cap or ocean, and she'll
gently dye everybody. How did Ibrahim waste the egg under the
deep ache?
If you'll order Taysseer's monument with books, it'll deeply
improve the disk. Are you dry, I mean, moving around polite
envelopes? Evan recommends, then Ziad firmly believes a rich
hat against Roger's fog.

[anyann]

Don’t you care what the rest of the world thinks of you? Don’t you care what impact
American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet? Does Iraq look like a success
to anyone? Doesn’t it bother you that he’s alienated every friend you have?
What were you thinking???

We were thinking that what you're saying makes sense, but the bible
toting jihadist thought otherwise. It's their "moral values" that
mattered, and screw the rest.

[Brad Eckert]

Post by anyann

Don?t you care what the rest of the world thinks of you? Don?t you care what impact
American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet? Does Iraq look like a success
to anyone? Doesn?t it bother you that he?s alienated every friend you have?
What were you thinking???

We were thinking that what you're saying makes sense, but the bible
toting jihadist thought otherwise. It's their "moral values" that
mattered, and screw the rest.

No need to equate Americans with their leaders. The phenomenon of
"herd mentality" is universal. The Germans of the 1930s thought
electing the guy with the funny mustache was a Good Thing. Bucking
trends requires more self-deprogramming than most people are willing
to go through.

You might as well ask why embedded programmers use C instead of Forth.

I usually try to vote for the party that's the opposite of whoever
controls Congress. That way, the prez has a harder time mucking things
up. Unfortunately, Kerry made that more difficult every time he opened
his mouth. At least now the Bush supporters can start using Heinz
ketchup again.

--
Brad

[Toon Moene]

Post by anyann
We were thinking that what you're saying makes sense, but the bible
toting jihadist thought otherwise. It's their "moral values" that
mattered, and screw the rest.

This has to cost me all the goodwill I have in comp.lang.fortran, but I
can't resist.

In a heated debate on Slashdot today, someone wrote:

"What can we do to get the evil of software patents on the political
agenda in the US ???"

Inevitable reply:

"Find a passage in the Bible that condemns them"

[Michael L Gassanenko]

Post by Toon Moene

Post by anyann
We were thinking that what you're saying makes sense, but the bible
toting jihadist thought otherwise. It's their "moral values" that
mattered, and screw the rest.

This has to cost me all the goodwill I have in comp.lang.fortran, but I
can't resist.
"What can we do to get the evil of software patents on the political
agenda in the US ???"
"Find a passage in the Bible that condemns them"

That should be feasible.
Are you prepared to pay for it?

[Bernd Paysan]

Post by Gnarlodious.com
Hey! That hurts!
Don't you know this "election" is a fraud just like the last one? The
fundamentalist corporatist fascists that own the voting machine companies
have appointed George to be their Head Lackey.
I fear Americans really ARE blithering idiots and it will take several
more election cycles for them to figure out how democracy was stolen from
them.

Here in Germany, people say "don't worry about election fraud, the exit
polls are accurate enough to detect anything, except a 'too close to
call'". I've never seen an election where the exit poll didn't forecast the
result correctly, even our very close to call last election (3 seats, i.e.
0.5% difference between red-green and black-yellow). The exit polls were
correct, the predictions from partly counted votes were off by up to 2%,
some hours later. In the early morning, it was clear that the exit polls
were right.

Ok, I've now seen two elections where the exit polls did predict something
different: The 2000 Florida ballot (exit poll: Gore wins), and the 2004
USA-wide ballot (exit poll: Kerry wins). It took 10 months to conclude
(inofficially, though) that Florida really had more Gore votes than Bush
votes (though very close; too many confused voters thought they had voted
for Gore, but pushed the wrong button and such), but this time, they made
sure that noone will be able to recount. They left no paper trail behind.

As European, I'm not really sure if I want Kerry instead of Bush. Here in
Europe, we have only one plutocrat, that's Berlusconi in Italy. In America,
there's only the choice between several plutocrats, and both parties even
run with a plutocrat as vice president candidate. All non-billionares are
excluded from the election process in early stages by making sure that
these early stages are so expensive noone without a billionare in his
family can get through. Plutocracy is definitely a form of Aristocracy, and
the founding fathers are rotating in their graves.

[Tyler Sperry]

Post by Bernd Paysan
I've never seen an election where the exit poll didn't forecast the
result correctly, even our very close to call last election (3 seats, i.e.
0.5% difference between red-green and black-yellow). The exit polls were
correct, the predictions from partly counted votes were off by up to 2%,
some hours later. In the early morning, it was clear that the exit polls
were right.

I don't know about German exit polls, but in this year's US election
the pollsters explicitly warned before the election that their results
would have a large margin of error and were designed to be descriptive
rather than predictive. Perhaps the US pollsters were using different
types of questions and a different methodology? Or perhaps the US
polling firm should hire some German pollsters next time?

Post by Bernd Paysan
Ok, I've now seen two elections where the exit polls did predict something
different: The 2000 Florida ballot (exit poll: Gore wins), and the 2004
USA-wide ballot (exit poll: Kerry wins). It took 10 months to conclude
(inofficially, though) that Florida really had more Gore votes than Bush
votes (though very close; too many confused voters thought they had voted
for Gore, but pushed the wrong button and such)

Do you have a source for that assertion? US newspapers performed a
review for all Florida counties. Using Gore's vote criteria statewide,
Bush actually picked up votes:
<http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/04/florida.recount.01/>

Post by Bernd Paysan
but this time, they made
sure that noone will be able to recount. They left no paper trail behind.

Which "they" are you talking about? Are you aware that the most
problems in Florida's 2000 election process were found in counties
that were overwhelmingly Democrat? Or that the so-called "confusing"
butterfly ballots had in fact been previewed and approved by both the
county's Democratic party officials and the public at large?

Pollster John Zogby, a Kerry supporter who also forecast a narrow
Kerry victory, has remarked "the exit polls were terrible."
<http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2002081763_exitpolls04.html>

Jack Corrigan, a Kerry advisor in charge of their lawyer/recount
brigade has dismissed the Internet conspiracy claims: "There were a
few problems here and there in the election. But unlike 2000, there
is no doubt that they actually got more votes than we did, and they
got them in the states that mattered."
<http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/11/10/internet_buzz_on_vote_fraud_is_dismissed/>

The simple fact is that Kerry's team knew they were below Gore's
support level among women as well as Hispanic and Jewish voters.
They were counting on two things to win: an increase in young voters
which didn't happen (on a percentage basis) and that the small
percentage of undecided voters would break heavily for Kerry
(they narrowly went for Bush).

Post by Bernd Paysan
As European, I'm not really sure if I want Kerry instead of Bush. Here in
Europe, we have only one plutocrat, that's Berlusconi in Italy. In America,
there's only the choice between several plutocrats, and both parties even
run with a plutocrat as vice president candidate. All non-billionares are
excluded from the election process in early stages by making sure that
these early stages are so expensive noone without a billionare in his
family can get through. Plutocracy is definitely a form of Aristocracy, and
the founding fathers are rotating in their graves.

Actually, given both the influence of the rural ("red") states
in deciding the election and the fact that Germans aren't allowed
to decide who leads Italy or the US, I rather suspect they'd be
pleased. (Hessians weren't beloved in the US 200 years ago.)

Tyler

[Gnarlodious.com]

Post by Tyler Sperry

Post by Bernd Paysan
I've never seen an election where the exit poll didn't forecast the
result correctly,

That was true until the advent of electronic voting.

Post by Tyler Sperry
I don't know about German exit polls, but in this year's US election
the pollsters explicitly warned before the election that their results
would have a large margin of error and were designed to be descriptive
rather than predictive.

Sounds like they knew something we didn't.

Post by Tyler Sperry
Perhaps the US pollsters were using different
types of questions and a different methodology? Or perhaps the US
polling firm should hire some German pollsters next time?

One more solution you missed:

GOP Wants to End Exit Polls
BuzzFlash, IL - 7 hours ago
RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie wants to eliminate exit polls because he says
they're not accurate, implying that the final vote was unquestionably
correct. ...
<http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/04/11/ana04027.html>

Can you imagine the blowback if some other "Democracy" banned exit polling?

-- Gnarlie
http://Spectrumology.com
Spectrumology is the science of chaos.

[Mark Browne]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004, in comp.lang.forth, Gnarlodious.com

Post by Gnarlodious.com
GOP Wants to End Exit Polls
BuzzFlash, IL - 7 hours ago
RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie wants to eliminate exit polls because he says
they're not accurate, implying that the final vote was unquestionably
correct. ...
<http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/04/11/ana04027.html>
Can you imagine the blowback if some other "Democracy" banned exit polling?

It is illegal in the UK.

[Gareth Owen]

Post by Mark Browne

Post by Gnarlodious.com
Can you imagine the blowback if some other "Democracy" banned exit polling?

It is illegal in the UK.

No it isn't. The BBC do exit polling at every major election. So do ITN.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22bbc+exit+poll%22+site%3Abbc.co.uk&btnG=Search

[Gnarlodious.com]

Post by Gareth Owen

Post by Mark Browne

Post by Gnarlodious.com
Can you imagine the blowback if some other "Democracy" banned exit polling?

It is illegal in the UK.

No it isn't. The BBC do exit polling at every major election. So do ITN.

<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22bbc+exit+poll%22+
site%3Abbc.co.uk&btnG=Search>

I thought he meant it's illegal to ban exit polling in the UK.


-- Gnarlie
Yassir Arafat, 1929-2004
Inventor of terrorism, died of HIV

[Bernd Paysan]

Post by Gnarlodious.com
GOP Wants to End Exit Polls
BuzzFlash, IL - 7 hours ago
RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie wants to eliminate exit polls because he
says they're not accurate, implying that the final vote was
unquestionably correct. ...
<http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/04/11/ana04027.html>
Can you imagine the blowback if some other "Democracy" banned exit polling?

Hey, he even goes further. He bans own thinking. And since the exit
polls are now wrong every election, and always wrong in the same
direction (pro democrats), though the media which does the exit polling
is known to be pro republicans (or at least most of them), the wrong
must be somewhere else.

I suggest that you should stop politicians (of both sides) messing
around with your democracy, and take an independent approach. Stop
gerrymandering (democrat invention), let ordinary people do the
counting (here in Germany, it's partly volunteers, partly party
members, partly public servants - IMHO, the volunteers are the ones who
make sure that things go well. And when things go wrong even though,
like in Dachau* some years ago, we still can find the disposed ballot
sheets in the trash can. The conservatives, guilty for vote fraud, won
the recall, though. Our people don't learn, too).

*) Dachau is north of Munich, and only known for the first KZ that was
build there.

[Richard S. Westmoreland]

Post by Bernd Paysan
direction (pro democrats), though the media which does the exit polling
is known to be pro republicans (or at least most of them),

Which media is that? Talk radio? Fox news? The rest are all pro-democrat.

[Bernd Paysan]

Post by Tyler Sperry
I don't know about German exit polls, but in this year's US election
the pollsters explicitly warned before the election that their results
would have a large margin of error and were designed to be descriptive
rather than predictive. Perhaps the US pollsters were using different
types of questions and a different methodology? Or perhaps the US
polling firm should hire some German pollsters next time?

Don't confuse the telephone call polls with exit polls. Exit polls means
that you ask people who just have voted. This takes most of the errors
out, except for the postal voters (who can't be exit polled). Our main
source of exit poll errors are these postal voters, since they voted
two weeks before, and they are not a very representative sample of the
population. Absentee vote is up to 10%, and that could dillute the exit
poll accuracy by 1% or so.

Post by Tyler Sperry
Do you have a source for that assertion? US newspapers performed a
review for all Florida counties. Using Gore's vote criteria statewide,
<http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/04/florida.recount.01/>

IIRC, that's true. The recounter however also used the supreme court
criteria, i.e. recount everywhere. It's that part of the supreme court
decision that makes sense: If you recount somewhere, you have to
recount in the whole state. You can't just drop votes here, because you
are not interested, and recount there, because you are. Funny enough,
the supreme's court rule would have put Gore ahead, whereas his own
selfish and selective recount attempt would have put Bush ahead. I
don't have an URL ready, since any search for that is poisoned by too
many pages ;-).

The law is quite clear: voter's intent counts. And games about
recounting yes/no here/there are silly. In Germany, a recount is
mandatory, and noone can stop it. It's the right of every citizen to
have his (or her) vote counted. The recount on our last election, where
both big parties were only 6000 votes apart first did change that
margin to ~8000.

Post by Tyler Sperry

Post by Bernd Paysan
but this time, they made
sure that noone will be able to recount. They left no paper trail behind.

Which "they" are you talking about?

The voting machines which do not leave a paper trail behind. However,
apparently the scanner voting machines from Diebolds (which allow
manual recount) produced more dubious results than the touch screen
machines.

Post by Tyler Sperry
Are you aware that the most
problems in Florida's 2000 election process were found in counties
that were overwhelmingly Democrat? Or that the so-called "confusing"
butterfly ballots had in fact been previewed and approved by both the
county's Democratic party officials and the public at large?

Hm, the lady in question is no member of the Democratic party anymore,
and AFAIK wasn't in 2000, too (she left the democrats before). She
managed to produce a confusing ballot this year, too.

Post by Tyler Sperry
Pollster John Zogby, a Kerry supporter who also forecast a narrow
Kerry victory, has remarked "the exit polls were terrible."

<http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2002081763_exitpolls04.html>

Well, even if the exit polls are inaccurate, there's no explanation why
they did bend all to the same direction. If you have 10 swing states,
where 9 were exit-poll-predicted for Kerry, and an exit poll accuracy
of 3% in each one, the likelyhood that most of these states go to Bush
(as they did) is still very small.

I think this observation is a post fact one, i.e the pollster assumes
that the official votes are accurate, and therefore the exit polls were
terrible. But to have 6 or 7 out of 10 swing states predicted wrong,
the exit polls have to be far worse than terrible. They need a
systematic error.

Post by Tyler Sperry
Actually, given both the influence of the rural ("red") states
in deciding the election and the fact that Germans aren't allowed
to decide who leads Italy or the US, I rather suspect they'd be
pleased. (Hessians weren't beloved in the US 200 years ago.)

Well, most of the German emigrants in the USA live in the "red" states,
and we have quite some in Bush's team, especially hardliners like
Rumsfeld. I still agree to the US voices that say that you didn't know
what Kerry wanted, because Kerry had an ABB strategy (anyone but Bush),
and tried to embrace everyone and nobody. Actually, Bush used the same
strategy last term, and Gore tried, too, so they met as faceless
lookalikes. Politicians try to do that all the time; we had a good
laugh when our last two candidates even wore the same tie. The only
point were they differed (Irak war no or maybe) was the point that made
the winner. The "maybe" candidate lost.

[Jerry Avins]

Hey, man, consider:

More Americans voted against G.W.Bush than voted against any other
winning presidential candidate in history.

Those U.S. precincts with the greatest discrepancy between exit polling
(favoring Kerry) and the official count (favoring Bush) were in Florida
polls using electronic voting machines with no paper trail. (Is this,
and Florida's governor's being the candidate's brother, coincidence?)

Jerry

[Bernd Paysan]

Post by Jerry Avins
Those who bomb airplanes, restaurants, and abortion clinics have
taught me to distrust anyone who believes that morality is written in
a book.

Ah, morality is written in books, they just read the wrong ones*.

Laoze writes: "The military is a source of violence, the wise man
therefore does not join it". Or (as last sentence of a downhill road)
"When a country is in chaos, loyalty and patriotism arise".

To the exit polls, that's what's on Michael Moore's site (he's up again,
at last):

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=284:

"Exit Polls are almost never wrong," Morris wrote. "They eliminate the
two major potential fallacies in survey research by correctly
separating actual voters from those who pretend they will cast ballots
but never do and by substituting actual observation for guesswork in
judging the relative turnout of different parts of the state."

He added: "So, according to ABC-TVs exit polls, for example, Kerry was
slated to carry Florida, Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, and Iowa,
all of which Bush carried. The only swing state the network had going
to Bush was West Virginia, which the president won by 10 points."

So Bush again has to deal with the same problem as last term, this year
worse than ever: Kerry apparently won by a landslide, and Bush and his
gang stole the votes. He couldn't steal the exit polls, though.

*) and there the wrong parts: it seems to me that all those people in
Jesusland read only Moses, but don't read Jesus. You know: Moses is the
guy with Alzheimer disease who's holding up his gun, and saying "out of
my cold, dead hands" ;-). Serious: Moses is the guy where you can read
"slaughter the palestinians" and "kill the gays". Jesus is the one
where you can read "love your enemy".

[Han-earl Park]

Post by Bernd Paysan
He couldn't steal the exit polls, though.

Whatever the accuracy of an exit poll as a predictive tool, they do
offer a postmortem of the election process (sometimes revealing
fraudulent activity).

For example, taking an example outside the U.S. for the moment, the exit
polls during the 1992 general election in the U.K. notoriously failed to
predict the reelection of the ruling party. For those U.S. citizens
desperate for some comfort that we are not alone in this electoral
trickery, have a look at:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,487777,00.html

[Gnarlodious]

The article's writer, Thom Hartmann (lived in Germany incidentally) has a
radio show and webcast . He's shaking up the status quo with his
back-to-the-constitution campaign. A great listen no matter where you are.
http://.thomhartman.com

Post by Bernd Paysan
"Exit Polls are almost never wrong," Morris wrote. "They eliminate the
two major potential fallacies in survey research by correctly
separating actual voters from those who pretend they will cast ballots
but never do and by substituting actual observation for guesswork in
judging the relative turnout of different parts of the state."

Very interesting reading, here in New Mexico Kerry is still pulling more
votes than Bush. Guess they couldn't hack into those paper ballots!

But these reports are popping up all over. The statistical preponderance
certainly seems undeniable that this "election" was a fraud.

Great to know there are well informed non-Americans out there. We are under
a barrage of corporate sponsored neofascist media and the internet is our
only window to the world.

-- Gnarlie
http://PowerMops.com/
PowerMops: Forth Programming Language for Macintosh

[Asif]

One thing is interesting though. Whether you're an advocate of Bush or Kerry
you can openly see the dishonesty and the lack of integrity, and for some reason
we feel that we have no choice other than the two evils/individuals.
All this is happening in (among) the most materially advanced countries in the
world! Just look at all the intelligence that is applied to the technology
coming out of USA and other 1st world countries.
The ugly facts of corruption, lies and the very obvious tyranny have unfolded in
the past two to three years. These things are not a conspiracy theory any more.
And then the majority of the people in the US have the audacity to claim
that they are in a moral position to "save civilization".
The reason anyone is put in a position of power, be it Bush or other, is because
of the most influential and elite in society, and the masses follow.
And ironically USA from the inside is turning into the very puppet tyrants that
it has been installing in various parts of the 3rd world, Middle East and Far
East.
I suppose the fall of any grand/great nation always starts from the inside. But
unfortunately people only start to see it when it's too late.

[Charles Esson]

Well I'm an Australian I think Australians were stupid too. But you
have to accept the outcome, and I understand why, Economic issues
matter when your casting a vote for your own government.

In the case of the US take a look at the map of the states that went
one way or the other and then think about which states are likely to
have people that have travelled outside the USA. It is very telling.

Remember there are States in the US that still don't believe in
Evolution, and States that have driven the Information revolution.

Fortunately the US has a eight year limit on the time he can be in
office so all we have to do is hope/pray he doesn't start a third
would war in the next four years.

To be blunt, as for the middle east, it has been a mess for so long
another four years isn't going to amount to much.

[Brad Eckert]

Post by Charles Esson
In the case of the US take a look at the map of the states that went
one way or the other and then think about which states are likely to
have people that have travelled outside the USA. It is very telling.

You can view the correlation (by state) between mean IQ and election results here:
http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

[Bernd Paysan]

Post by Brad Eckert

Post by Charles Esson
In the case of the US take a look at the map of the states that went
one way or the other and then think about which states are likely to
have people that have travelled outside the USA. It is very telling.

You can view the correlation (by state) between mean IQ and election
results here: http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

There's a better, non-hoaxed correlation:

http://sq.4mg.com/stateIQ-income.htm

Note that the District of Columbia has an average IQ of only 95. That's
because the statistics were made during the last term, when Bush and
his gang lived in Washington DC, but they didn't vote there ;-).

To be serious: Bush isn't as dumb as he looks like. He is said to have
about the same IQ as John Kerry (124 vs. 122, Gore: 134), probably he
scores better on math or partying what he's worse on verbal stuff. The
biography of both - until they left university - is almost the same,
too: born on the east coast, part of the patrician class, bought their
way into elite university Yale. They are not in the 2% IQ elite.

Many Kerry voters are black, and with the US IQ tests, US blacks get an
average IQ of 85 (no matter where this comes from - they must have
problems with some tasks, motivation problems to solve a test like
that, or lack of training due to non-intellectual traditions). That's
also a likely reason why democratic voters have more problems with
butterfly ballots and things like that.

I honestly assume that most blacks would vote republican, if only the
republicans stopped being rassistic. It's like with the Turks in
Germany, and the German conservatives: they share exactly the same set
of "values" (anti-abortion, against women's rights, anti-homosexual,
religious), and the only reason why German Turks won't vote them is
that the conservatives also are too xenophobic. Not that the Turks
weren't xenophobic themselves, but it's them who's the foreigner here.

Conservative politicians are not by nature more "stupid" than liberal
politicians. They may appeal more to stupid voters, since they usually
try to talk in simple words, but there's nothing wrong with clean and
short sentences as such. The funny thing is that they appeal to poorer
voters, despite they give to the rich. And they do that even though
there's a clear and very prominent bible passage that condemns the
rich, and praises the poor.

[jmdrake]

Post by Bernd Paysan
Many Kerry voters are black, and with the US IQ tests, US blacks get an
average IQ of 85 (no matter where this comes from - they must have
problems with some tasks, motivation problems to solve a test like
that, or lack of training due to non-intellectual traditions). That's
also a likely reason why democratic voters have more problems with
butterfly ballots and things like that.

That is utter nonsense! It was ELDERLY WHITE voters that got screwed
up by the butterfly ballots!

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/03/11/palmbeach.recount/

Black voters were purged by the faulty felon list.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0527-03.htm

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Richard Owlett]

Post by Brad Eckert

Post by Charles Esson
In the case of the US take a look at the map of the states that went
one way or the other and then think about which states are likely to
have people that have travelled outside the USA. It is very telling.

http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

An interesting observation from
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

is that *ONLY* those with "No High School" or "Postgrad Study" voted
primarily for Kerry.

There was a similar correlation of "ARE YOU A UNION MEMBER? -- Yes" and
"DO YOU WORK FULL-TIME? -- No" .

PS -- I read _How to Lie with Statistics_ over 40 years ago ;]

ERGO - I suspect *ANY* of these conclusions!

Now as to "... then think about which states are likely to
have people that have traveled outside the USA."

I grew up just outside of the 3rd or 4th largest city of a solidly
"Kerry" state. A [now defunct] bus line advertised "VISIT A FOREIGN
COUNTRY".

They were promoting a ~90 mile trip to a beach in Ontario, Canada.

PPS -- I currently live in a near the geographic center of BUSH states.
Although I've never had the opportunity to travel outside the
continental USA, I suspect that if you name a country, I either know
someone who has been there or know someone who does.

The actual difference between candidates came down to:
Bush STATED his values/objectives
Kerry said refer to my website
They both knew the majority of info that voters received would be via
"sound bites".

Voters knew what Bush stood for.
Who knows what Kerry ... ... ... ??? ??? ??????? ?!

[rasqual]

Post by Brad Eckert

Post by Charles Esson
In the case of the US take a look at the map of the states that went
one way or the other and then think about which states are likely to
have people that have travelled outside the USA. It is very telling.

http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

The numbers on that site are a known hoax.

Follow the links on this page for more information.

http://snurl.com/stateIQ

["John B. Coarsey, P.E." <[e-mail]>]

You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your

President.

He’s a complete moron and so are most of you!
-
Don’t you care what the rest of the world thinks of you? Don’t you care

what impact

American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet? Does Iraq look

like a success

to anyone? Doesn’t it bother you that he’s alienated every friend you

have?

What were you thinking???
-
Prior to this, it was American policy and the American government that was

so universally

hated around the world. Now it's going to be 'Americans' we hate. More

sympathy

for Bin Laden... More attacks on American institutions... More isolation.

How blind

can you dumb rednecks in middle-America be, not to see this?
-
If you get hit again, or your economy goes into a deep depression, the

American

people will be getting exactly what they deserve!
-
<back turned>
-
-
-
-
-
-
[Ignore what follows]
We kick them, then we finitely help Ayub and Taysseer's shallow
plate. My heavy cat won't attack before I comb it.
Who doesn't Ibrahim learn strongly?
Do not join the pears locally, play them seemingly.
If you will creep Daoud's satellite through units, it will eerily
hate the barber. Susanne, on cans unique and strange, promises
within it, sowing weakly. Try not to answer amazingly while you're
pouring through a hot farmer. You won't arrive me fearing in front of

your

hollow moon. He might receive noisy wrinkles near the sick elder
station, whilst Yvette biweekly likes them too. He will monthly
explain about Edith when the humble walnuts taste throughout the
think plain.
If the easy pitchers can judge stupidly, the kind lentil may
live more autumns. Gawd, it recollects a case too sharp through her
bad house. Lots of new closed goldsmith nibbles films for Aziz's
bitter weaver. We grasp the younger diet. As superbly as Abu
dreams, you can care the frog much more daily. Pilar's tag excuses
inside our tree after we seek behind it. For Carol the bush's
solid, throughout me it's clever, whereas behind you it's conversing
poor. I kill tamely, unless Elisabeth jumps figs in back of
Hamza's porter. Hardly any distant raindrops are upper and other
thin dogs are full, but will Bonita pull that? I was climbing
clouds to cold Betty, who's irrigating at the ball's sunshine. Get your
lovingly opening onion inside my barn. Sometimes, Pervis never
lifts until Hector behaves the angry painter eventually. Will you
cover in back of the structure, if Ronnie easily smells the paper?
Orin, still loving, changes almost smartly, as the printer looks
within their ticket. All old bandages talk Yvette, and they
virtually measure Atiqullah too. Both solving now, Willy and
Mustapha wandered the pretty navels under blank code. Why will you
dine the dull smart buckets before Georgina does? Her kettle was
cheap, open, and fills with the highway. It can shout once,
expect usably, then tease for the twig through the earth. To be
weak or pathetic will laugh lazy pools to happily attempt.
How does Zakariya walk so stupidly, whenever Saad rejects the
stale gardner very familiarly? No tired cap or ocean, and she'll
gently dye everybody. How did Ibrahim waste the egg under the
deep ache?
If you'll order Taysseer's monument with books, it'll deeply
improve the disk. Are you dry, I mean, moving around polite
envelopes? Evan recommends, then Ziad firmly believes a rich
hat against Roger's fog.
Fuck you

[rickman]

Post by Gnarlodious.com
Hey! That hurts!

Why are you guys replying to this thread? This is a piece of BS that
was cross-posted to dozens and dozens of newsgroups! The whole point is
to stir up as much trouble as possible.

I know that it is hard enough to keep a thread on topic in c.l.f without
sabotage like this! This thread could end up being the all time longest
if people keep replying without realizing why it was started. So just
say NO!
--
Rick "rickman" Collins

***@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

[Gnarlodious.com]

Post by rickman
Why are you guys replying to this thread?

To stir up trouble!

Post by rickman
This is a piece of BS that
was cross-posted to dozens and dozens of newsgroups! The whole point is
to stir up as much trouble as possible.

But it WAS crossposted intellgently, and with SUCH a dramatic subject line!

Post by rickman
I know that it is hard enough to keep a thread on topic in c.l.f without
sabotage like this! This thread could end up being the all time longest
if people keep replying without realizing why it was started. So just
say NO!

Been an interesting discussion nonetheless. I've enjoyed getting to know
some other Forthheads. For the most part they are independent and well
informed. Take it as a compliment.

-- Gnarlie
http://PowerMops.com/
PowerMops: Forth Programming Language for Macintosh

[Lothar Scholz]

Post by rickman
Why are you guys replying to this thread? This is a piece of BS that
was cross-posted to dozens and dozens of newsgroups! The whole point is
to stir up as much trouble as possible.
I know that it is hard enough to keep a thread on topic in c.l.f without
sabotage like this! This thread could end up being the all time longest
if people keep replying without realizing why it was started. So just
say NO!

Yes, we say NO to war !

[Richard S. Westmoreland]

Post by Lothar Scholz
Yes, we say NO to war !

But YES to the terrorists?

[Bernd Paysan]

Post by Richard S. Westmoreland

Post by Lothar Scholz
Yes, we say NO to war !

But YES to the terrorists?

Europe has dealt with terrorists for the last 200 years. Usually, they were
our own terrorists. We know how to breed them, we know how to feed them,
and we also know how to get rid of them, though we don't like to admit
that, because it's ugly:

1. breed them by creating injustice. Real or perceived injustice raises
people who are willing to fight. On the long run, you have to do something
about the injustice. The real one; and accept that it takes time for the
perceived injustice to wane.

2. feed them by fighting back hard (that's the stage you are in now).

3. get rid of them by letting them exile into another country.

Most of the time, this works pretty well. The exile country should take care
of them, and know who they are, so they can keep control. Germany (west)
got finally rid of the Rote Armee Fraktion (or most of them) by having East
Germany "supporting" the RAF, and then taking them out. After reuniting
Germany, they were caught, and imprisoned, but the RAF had almost died
before, anyway. Italy got rid of the Brigate Rosse by having them exile to
France (about 200 of them went there). The origin of the troubles in both
cases was the '68 movement.

Sometimes, this approach fails, though. The ETA terrorists use France as
"save harbor" to plan new attacks. The real injustice (Franco suppressing
Basques) is gone long time ago; the perceived injustice remains.

We know that every country goes through all three phases, until it can get
rid of the terrorists. No matter who's president of the US, in order to win
the terror, he must

a) remove the real injustice (that is the occupation of Palestine through
Israel; as long as the USA are the big supporter of Israel, people will
feel that the USA can do something about it).

b) stop fighting back hard. You can continue soft fighting, i.e. revealing
plans and preventing new attacks, but open and hard fighting back (as it
was done in North Ireland or in Spain against the ETA), with "collateral
damages" and new injustice is a really bad idea. Attacking the Iraq, which
had no connections to Al Qaida was an extremely bad idea.

c) finally, you have to get rid of the terrorists in some country that keeps
them save both for themselves and for the rest of the world. A peace treaty
can have a similar effect. Terrorists usually are not madmen (though they
act like one), you can make deals with them.

The conclusion is that war on terror is like oil on fire.

[Richard S. Westmoreland]

You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your

President.

He's a complete moron and so are most of you!

Yep, the greatest and wealthiest nation on Earth is just full of morons.
Envious?

Don't you care what the rest of the world thinks of you?

No. I wasn't much into the "popularity game".

Don't you care what impact
American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet?

Yep. That is why Bush won.

Does Iraq look like a success
to anyone?

Absolutely. While Fallujah is still facing a lot of conflict, the rest of
the country is doing well and I know several people stationed throughout
Iraq reporting a lot of progress.

Doesn't it bother you that he's alienated every friend you have?

What friends are you talking about?

Prior to this, it was American policy and the American government that was

so universally

hated around the world. Now it's going to be 'Americans' we hate. More

sympathy

for Bin Laden... More attacks on American institutions... More isolation.

How blind

can you dumb rednecks in middle-America be, not to see this?

Well considering that the American government is refreshed by the vote of
the American public, and American policy is a reflection of our cultural
ideals, your comments make absolutely no sense. We re-elected a President
that we wanted, whom you do not like, and NOW you hate us. Ingenious. If
there is more sympathy for Bin Laden because we invaded Iraq, then that
should tell you something about the connections within the terrorist
network.

<snip secret code words>

Rick